I still say no to shooting at mature bull elk with 270 class guns or 6.5s. I will not change my mind on this. I have said this in many other forums and threads. 7mm mags and on up. So if you want a multipurpose full meal deal rifle - 6.8 is not it. JMHO for what that is worth. Would be awesome for everything else. I own 3 270’s so not against the caliber - but am so for elk.
Question for you. Maybe this deserves its own thread, maybe not. I enjoyed Eric’s video also.
One thing however that really wasn’t talked about was cartridge selection. Everyone used one of the newer 6mm cartridges, the other guy shot a 223. I’m not really familiar with these newer 6mm cartridges, I do own both a 243 and a 6mm Creedmoor right now. I would have to say that if someone told me I needed to shoot a whitetail deer at 500 yards and neither of those guns would be something I would pull out.
My most accurate hunting style rifle I own is a 7mm-08. While it would be fun to try shooting it that range to see what I could do, I know based upon the ballistics tables that my gun runs out of steam at 300 yards for lethality, terminal performance. I’m thinking for 500 yards that a 270/280/30-06 class cartridge would be the bare minimum?
So now you need to factor into the equation the fact that only one person was able to make a hit and he was using a very tricked out rifle which is very impractical for the woods around here, maybe other places it’s okay, and using fairly low recoiling cartridges and still missing. Change that up by increasing to a harder to shoot cartridge and it really makes you think even more about what’s really ethical.
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I’m surprised you even have a range in the Bay Area! I’m in LA and we have one with steel targets out to 600yds. This state is making it harder and harder for us. Any idea if that newly imposed 11% excise tax is going to go away? I know there are lawsuits filed.
I got a Tikka in 300 WSM a few months ago. So far I really like it.
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There are a few ranges left in the Bay Area, though another one recently closed. I shoot and volunteer as an RSO at United Sportsman’s in Concord. It’s a great range, I just wish we had targets out past 200yds.
As for the newly imposed excise tax, in the 9th circuit anything can happen, but based on my understanding of the case, I think there is a good chance the tax will be overturned. I think the Minneapolis Star decision by the Supreme Court may be the precedent relied upon. In that case, Minnesota enacted a special tax on paper and ink. The Minneapolis Star Tribune sued and eventually won with the Supreme Court finding the tax placed a differential burden on the press contrary to the First Amendment’s guarantee of a free press. I think similarly, the state of California is singling out firearms, protected by the Second Amendment, for diffential treatment.
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6.8 western shoots 175gr as a very common load which is the same as 7 prc and at about the same velocity. Caliber difference is merely 0.0012” difference.
Personally, I can’t imagine that making the difference in a kill more than once in a million.
But that’s no disrespect to your opinion. Can you tell me more about why u feel that way? I like learning from others.
I agree not a big difference. And frankly I say some sort of 308 from 06 and up is better. Bigger bullets punch harder - and expanded diameter is more? I would ask myself if I would hunt grizzly with a 270 class weapon? I do not have proof but I think that a 6x6 bull is as hard to bring down as a griz. Everything else is in far second place. The difference being that a bull can go so far after being shot like nothing else. I have said in other threads the same thing. I shot a cow in the lungs and second shot severed her leg. She still ran 1/4 mile into thick reprod. Did not find her until noon the next day. Lost probably 25% including tenderloins. Last year my friend shot a 5x5 and clipped the heart. Plus lungs on next shot witha 300WSM 180 gr. Still ran over the hill and fortunately died before crossing to other private land. I would not hunt bull elk with a 270. But you do get 25grs more a bit faster with the 6.8. It is probably ok but not my first choice. And for me I want the confidence that I am bringing the hammer and the 300 WM gives me that.
But I would concede not all that much difference end the end.
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Question to ask oneself. With modern technology rangefinder’s balistic apps and such what is the gain with shooting something a little faster or a slightly bigger diameter bullett. With the added recoil we all don’t shoot them as accurately. If we want to reach out a little further maybe shooting something smaller with less recoil is the way to go? If you listen to the EXO podcast they talked extensively on this and the results they had sure say smaller is better in terms of not losing animals.
I get the idea, but I hesitate to jump into a race to the bottom to find the smallest cartridge for hunting a given class of game. I’m not familiar with that podcast. Did they set some kind of minimum cartridge for a given class?
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I just shot my M70 6.8 Western today with the factory Winchester 165gr ABLR. My avg velocity was 2983.4fps(sd 7.1) and my best group was .494 and worst was around .90. I’m hoping that my rifle will keep that performance and it’s not just a really good box of ammo.
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Great results
They talked about the fact that shooting a larger caliber is always going to make you shoot less accurately. The idea being that the gun moves more in larger caliber’s even before the bullett leaves the barrel. And some studies show that anything over a 243 6mm makes the majority of people shoot less accurately. The caliber they talked of as being ideal in most situations was the 5.56 223. The podcast is long and in 3 parts overall. I have the first linked here The Hunt Backcountry Podcast: 469 | Why Smaller Calibers May Be Better For Big Game Hunting (Part 1) — The Experience Project on Apple Podcasts
You got me curious enough to check out the videos, but I have to say I’m skeptical about hunting big game with a .223. Maybe deer in a 22-250 or 22 Swift, or the new 22 Creed, but I would be highly dubious shooting at anything bigger. I think we’ve all seen guys who can shoot moa or better with larger calibers. I’ve gotten sub-moa groups out of 30 cal rifles. I have to think the marginal inprovement in accuracy is offset by the significant advantage in terminal performance in the larger cartridges. Even a heavy .223, say 77gr, is not going to do well penetrating the heavy bone of larger animals. Still, you got me curious to hear what they say.
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So what is the kill zone on an elk? 9 inches? How pin point do you have to be? And are most able to pinpoint a heart on an elk at any angle other than side on? Within that 9 inch circle of margin- more power is better - with more margin of error. I don’t know within the 9 inches as you get towards the outside of the circle - say at inch 4 of the radius - the value of more energy in that ring of a 300 vs. 6.5. Is the circle smaller for a smaller bullet? say 7 vs 9 inches therefore making the margin for error smaller?
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I measured the vitals on the last large whitetail I shot and it was 9” x 10”. Elk may double that.
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I understand the hesitancy on going with a smaller cartridge. We all have our own experiences and biases based on the things we remember. But those are small in sample size. Someone who has seen the results from far more than I and anyone else I know I will sure give a listen to. He himself grew up with large magnum calibers even. And with what Jim has shown with the 22 creedmoor. It seems that if you have the right speed on impact with a bullett that will make a good wound channel you can expect to get good results. Small calibers can certainly get the job done. And it’s shot location location location in how successful you will be in recovering a hit animal. Side thought, with a suppressor maybe we can shoot a larger caliber as good as a 243 because it feels like one? I have a 7RUM and it feels like a 243 when suppressed. Maybe the numbers would say it’s not but wow the difference is amazing
Well, after reading about the 7 PRC, and watching a lot of people purchase them, I got my hands on one this weekend. It is an impressive cartridge.
Bergara 7 PRC, carbon fiber barrel, muzzle brake, with a Leupold 6HD, nice set up a guy bought. The rifle had never been fired, and he asked my cousin and I to get it set up by doing some shooting with it (and it is his wife’s new deer hunting rifle).
Recoil: With the factory brake on the gun, there is virtually no recoil to manage. I held onto it pretty firm for the first round, but after that I was completely relaxed in pulling the trigger, so correspondingly, I was focused totally on target acquisition, trigger pull, breathing, etc., and not worried at all about recoil.
With a brake, a well designed stock, there is in my opinion…(not everyone’s), no impact on my ability to shoot well with that rifle.
Enjoyed it, didn’t feel beat up by the weapon and that has been my exact experience with my 7 Rem Mag with a brake on it.
But, no, I don’t think hunting deer and up with a 223 is the way to go. I have put first time hunters on a 223 with a 55 grain soft point and we were shooting 75 yards or closer. Letting them focus on shooting and not being afraid of getting whacked by the rifle can be a good thing to learn. After that they just keep graduating up like most of us have to a caliber we kind of finally settle on.
Thanks
I gave the podcast a listen. I like hearing different points of view. Sometimes it confirms what I thought. Occasionally it completely changes what I thought. More often than not, it adds additional information or slightly modifies what I thought, which was the case with this podcast.
I think it is a fair point that you can shoot the same rifle better with a smaller cartridge. However, what advantage does that give the hunter balanced against terminal performance? On that count he did not convince me that a .223 is ideal for big game. I think he correctly noted the average hunter’s ethical hunting range, even referencing the Backfire milk jug challenge. He rightly pointed out that one 3 shot group doesn’t mean anything. We’ve discussed that at length here.
After that, he pretty much lost me. He rightly notes that with practice, you can learn to shoot a larger cartridge/caliber well, then dismisses it. He talked about decreased hit percentages, but backed it up with anecdotal info. Granted I only listened to the first hour, but he completely ignored the relationship of frontal area (sectional density) on the wound channel. He first stated that energy on impact is all that matters then later dismissed energy as a useful metric. I had to listen to that part twice to make sure I heard right. He talked about drag being proportional to velocity, noting a bullet with a faster muzzle velocity will slow down at a greater rate than the same bullet fired more slowly and compared the 6.5 Creed to the 6.5 PRC as a way to discount the faster initial velocity from the PRC. Will it slow down faster? Yes, but so what? It still has more velocity and energy at 300 yards than the Creed (from a 24” barrel). I mentioned he completely dismissed energy as a useful metric with the point that bullet construction is all that matters. He did the bit about a big shallow wound versus a deep pencil sized wound. That’s a bit of a straw man in my mind. It may be true, but no one is arguing to use FMJs for hunting. I think we all understand the importance of bullet construction, but energy matters too. It’s just physics. Same for same, that 147 gr ELDX from a 6.5 PRC with more energy will do more tissue damage than it will from a 6.5 Creedmoor at 300 yards. He even stated a bullet with 300 ft/lbs of energy (less than 9mm) can make a big ball of a wound. Well yes, at very close range and with a very well placed shot. Sure you can take a deer with a 9mm, but that doesn’t make it ideal.
I think he makes the same mistake in reverse. I don’t think the ideal is to find the biggest cartridge/caliber combo you can find, not train, and then go hunt. That said, with the idea presented in this podcast, it does seem like a race to the bottom to find the smallest possible cartridge that might work. Maybe for deer the 22 Creed is a valid option, but I don’t think that makes it ideal or even indicated for larger animals. Per my earlier post, I have real doubts even a 77 gr .223 will penetrate deeply through the heavy bone of larger animals. Seems to me a more sensible direction might be to size up your quarry then choose a rifle that’s big enough, but you can still shoot well, and practice.
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I’d get a 6.8 Western (in an X-Bolt 2 Speed SPR). If I was worried about ammo, then I’d get some dies & reload my own.
That’s just me. There’s really no overriding reason for one or the other; both get the job done. (Although there is the issue of recoil vis-à-vis staying on target after the trigger pull, but the Backstop Recoil Pad makes that fairly moot.)
Might have to get one of those Backfire recoil pads!