I hope this doesn’t come off as too negative, as that’s not who I am, but just wanted to offer my thoughts after the latest video. I’ve been following the channel for a long time now and been a member since the beginning, so this is not meant to bash Jim and the crew. I’ve learned a ton over the years.
I love the idea from the Database, but I feel ranking heavy recoil cartridges against lighter recoil cartridges isn’t fair. Maybe that’s part of what Jim is trying to show…that it’s easier to shoot a lighter recoiling gun. That said, it doesn’t seem fair to the manufacturers for those guns where you only have the heavy recoil options. If there’s going to be a ranking of the rifles I would think it would be better to group them in similar recoil groups and rank those. Then if you want to have an overall ranking it would be more informative to rank them according to cartridge.
The second thing I’d like to point out from this past year is that Tikka seems to have become the golden child. Perhaps I’ve worded that too harshly, but this last video seems to have reinforced that impression in my mind. I’m not behind the scenes, so I don’t know the efforts that go into trying to get each rifle to shoot it’s best. The video spent a fair bit of time discussing the one Tikka that didn’t shoot good originally and all the efforts that went into finding what made it shoot good. It gave the impression, at least to me, that more effort was given to that rifle to make it shoot it’s absolute best than to say the Seekins in 7PRC. The Seekins shot pretty well right out of the box, but did you put the same efforts into shrinking the group sizes for it that you did for the Tikka? If you’re going to call out one against the other I would hope that you’d put the same effort into both.
I readily admit I’m a huge fan for Seekins and would love to see more content around the Havak line…especially the PH3. Maybe my impression isn’t fair because of that partiality. So take my opinion for what it’s worth…I’m certainly not an expert! I like the Tikka action, but thus far in my own experience (limited to 2 rifles so far) it has not proven to be more accurate right out of the box than any other rifle I’ve tried…well it was more accurate than the Mossberg!
Have to agree about the Mossberg, I think I get about 2.5” with my missberg in 450 bushmaster…. But its main and only purpose is to shoot subsonic rounds in the backyard at my deer at 50yards… so it serves the $349 price tag paid for it. Also my 7mm-08 Tikka did not shoot accurately, was 2+ inch group w/160 Norma ammo, but ended up selling to do a custom build-but oh lord those action are probably the best out of the box…
If Jim and Co have a bias for Tikka, they would not be alone. But it isn’t just accuracy, it feeds its affordable, the action runs no matter what. There really isn’t a reason to not like it. And, while I am no a fan boy of Tikka, I do have to defend Jim a bit because it was the Tikka 6.5 CM specifically that he gushed about. He didn’t have good thought toward the Tikka 7prc.
From what I hear, Seekins rifles are great. I was considering the PH3, who knows, maybe at some point I will pull the trigger on that. So this is in no way a criticism of Seekins.
As for Tikka, I have experience with two rifles. Both shot great. So far, my Roughtech in 300 WSM is giving me sub-moa 5 shot groups. The only change I made out-of-the-box was a Backstop recoil pad. You’re mileage may vary. In my mind, it’s really hard to justify paying twice as much when the Tikka can give that level of performance with a smooth running, reliable action.
I recently purchased a Tikka and I agree the action is smooth. The Seekins action on mine is at least as smooth and the throw on the PH3 is incredibly light compared to what other bolt action rifles have.
I don’t mean for this to be about comparing Seekins and Tikka, that was just the example that was specifically brought up in the video. I get it that the price is less, but at least where I live, Tikkas go for over $900 new. In my extremely humble (and far less experienced) opinion you get two things with a Seekins, specifically the 3rd generation models, that you don’t get with a Tikka - a better stock (again I’m specifically talking about the 3rd generation) and a better trigger. If you’re going to pay to put the Tikka action in a new stock and maybe install a new trigger, prices are getting pretty close (obviously depends on what you’re using). I haven’t heard much about the customer support for Tikka, but I have heard rave reviews about Seekins.
Again, I don’t mean for this to be a comparison. I’m mostly interested to know if each rifle was given the same consideration as the Tikka in 7PRC that did not shoot well without what sounds like quite a bit of experimentation.
Also, let me say this again…I’m not in anyway trying to criticize Jim and Co. I think they put together very informative videos.
I appreciate that and understand the spirit in which your comments were offered. I have also been a member since the beginning and have learned so much from Jim and the community.
I do think you have a fair point about comparing lighter recoiling cartridges and heavy recoiling cartridges. From Jim’s work and others, as well as many discussions here in the community, I think we understand that lighther recoiling cartridges are easier to shoot well. It would be intersting to see cartridges divided into two segments, lighter recoiling and heavier recoiling, then comparisons of accuracy between various rifles in the two groups with cartridges generating similar recoil energy.
The accuracy database is just about cold hard facts—it’s a database. We take every rifle we can get our hands on and test them and show the results. Precisely the same testing procedure for every rifle.
If they were all in the same cartridge, all we could say is that rifle IN THAT CARTRIDGE wins. Only people interested in THAT ONE CARTRIDGE would get anything out of the database. Would also be cool to test 50 rifles in one cartridge but I don’t have that. But this way, we get SO much more information:
How heavy does a 7 prc need to be? What is the best 300 win mag compared to the best 6.5 creedmoor so we can see how much more “inherently accurate” it is? Do hot loads across each cartridge tend to shoot worse? Across all cartridges, is there a brand of ammo that tends to work better in many rifles?
We’re consistently adding more and more to the database. The more we have, the more we’ll be able to compare of rifles in a specific cartridge. But you’re right that just because a Sako 90 shot bigger groups than a Horizon Vandal doesn’t mean it’s a worse rifle if it’s a 300 win and the other is a 22 creed. The RAD is just data and the right conclusions must be drawn from it. So when we say the “top 15 most accurate rifles,” we certainly mean “The top 15 rifles in the cartridges and loads that performed best” but that doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, lol
I don’t think we’ll separate the RAD in bigger and smaller cartridges. It’s already an Excel sheet. You can sort, filter, etc with any criteria you want.
As for favoring some brands, we have our favorites but they are our favorites because they take the LEAST work to get shooting. For the most part, the worse a rifle performs on the RAD, the more ammo and time we have poured into it because we want to see the max potential of each rifle. We tested a Ruger American this week and I had to put over $350 of ammo through it (and three trips to the range) to see if we could possibly get it to shoot. We aren’t needing to do that with the higher performing guns.
Don’t forget that Tikka is the Lord’s rifle! Cream rises to the top!
Joking!
Tikka is often considered the golden child because it continually outperforms most factory rifles for a fraction of the price. Customs will outperform it, but your spending a lot more money at that point. The feeding is phenomenal. The accuracy is great, the trigger is good, it just works. It works better than any other rifle I have seen under duress, sand in the bolt, I’ve seen it packed and left in the snow or had water poured in it and left outside in freezing conditions and it just keeps working.
I’ve heard nothing but good about Seekins, and haven’t held/tried one since the pH2, but in my opinion it has the same flaw as Tikka, it has a subpar stock. I don’t know if it’s changed on the PH3, but it feels like plastic garbage to me. That said, most seem to shoot well and I also hear great things about their customer service. I don’t think they would be a bad option, I just don’t think you’re getting anywhere close to the price for performance value of a Tikka. I also haven’t seen a Seekins stress tested. Maybe it would do ok, but honestly most rifles completely fail to function completely. Sometimes it’s the trigger, a lot of times it’s because it’s a Remington 700 footprint.
I disagree with you guys pretty strongly on separating the RAD by light/heavy recoil. Yes, anything with a smaller explosion and smaller punch to the shoulder is likely to shoot better groups, but unless you get the whole data set, you’re not finding the outliers. The Sako 90 quest in 300 WM was an anomaly- lightweight and small groups. That speaks very highly of that rifle design and function. Like, I would have confidence in using that rifle in a light or heavy cartridge.
As to your last point, I always get the impressions that Garret and Jim go through a lot of different ammo and tuning when reviewing each rifle. The Sako S20 got some extra love just because it went from shooting great to shooting like crap, and it’s like, ok what happened?
You also see this with his other reviews. Mossberg patriot literally flew or had someone drive out to try and get their rifle shooting well. Christensen has been reviewed at least 3 times I can remember and performed poorly every single time no matter what they tried. Like I genuinely feel like he tries to give each manufacturer that sends a rifle in a fair shot at getting it to perform well. He also documents when things go wrong and holds them accountable so he’s not steering people to poorly performing rifles.
I have taken the RAD plus the ballistics tables and used both to compare rifles to calibers etc.
I have been rearranging the data to fit my needs and concerns taking into account different points like recoil, rearranged from heaviest to lightest, max distance, drop at 400, drift etc, fully knowing that the data is just that data. it is a wealth of knowledge to make a good choice based hard facts.
In doing this breakdown and looking very in depth at each category started seeing certain patterns like percent in 1 moa, and how many are similar in certain categories and those that are not. Being able to separate custom rifles from factory, hand load vs factory and so on. I have been able to look at calibers specifically and compare for possible future builds or purchase.
It would be almost impossible for most to be able to shoot 50 plus rifles with up to fifty or so rounds per at times to get this info, I am very thankful to Jim, Garrett and whole backfire crew.
Yes, I am very greatful to Jim, Garrett, and crew for the work that went into this. I realized, as Jim pointed out, being an Excel database, you can sort or filter to find the particular comparisons you want. The work is a great service to the community.
I think everyone also has different experiences with a brand/rifle. I wasn’t a fan of the Tikka T3X Lite in 270 with the plastic stock. We put a good stock on it and now it performs better. The comparison was great. It gave a base to work from. Some rifles just don’t perform because of the barrel not matter what you do. Fortunately those are rare and Jim showed that cost doesn’t equal accuracy. It’s great reference I wish I had earlier. After looking at the database I would have gone with the Seekins for a few hundred more after buying the Tikka rifle and new stock.
Thanks and keep it up.
Forgive me if this has been covered as I am new to the forum. (Long time viewer on YouTube that finally supported.) ; If we can get the standard test variables, distance (100Y or M?), group shots (5 with 1 being cold bore), temp, humidity, altitude, etc, it would be a fun and interesting database to let consumers of the forum be able to perform the test with the only variable being the shooter. Granted I know that is arguably the biggest variable, but if there is a living breathing excel sheet that allows data from users to be aggregated and not edited (meaning one user cannot change other data) this thing could get larger and perhaps even more helpful. It is a great tool to have, I just bought a fierce mnt reaper in 7prc, the factory test shows .38” in 3 shot group, the database has Jim’s 6.5prc shooting ~.8”, I am in betwixt both of those numbers but shooting at 100m in 65 degree weather with 68% rH at 1200’ elevation.
Looks like most of the Backfire crew are wearing Tikka hats now, so at least they’re not trying to hide it. The main problem with list like this is the limited sample size of rifles/models tested. If you get a good one it’s great, a bad one, they suck. Of course, that goes for personal ownership as well. I’m sure Tikka’s are worthy of their reputation, but I personally own one (Tikka T3X Lite Stainless in 308) and accuracy is mediocre at best. Add to that the junk stock and blah trigger, and I’ll probably never buy another one. If my sample size of one cloverleafed every group, I’d be out there singing their praises as well.
I’m admittedly a Tikka fan. Saying that up front. It’s unfortunate you had a bad experience with your Tikka, but it is a sample size of one. Every mass produced good will have some variation. It sucks if you get the “bad” one, but you have to measure over a large sample size to gauge overall performance. That is why the RAD is helpful. It gives more data points and will keep expanding. Not trying to get you to buy another Tikka. We all find what we like and more power to you. It’s a great time to be a rifle shooter with all the awesome factory guns and great custom builders.
Regarding the database download, it appears that the only way to access the full database is by signing up with my email. However, when I complete the form, I never receive anything in my inbox. I’ve tried this several times with the same result.
When I navigate to the downloads section, the only version available is from 2023.
Am I missing a step, or doing something incorrectly?
