I had a Tikka T3 in 223 that I took into a small gun shop to get the barrel threaded. While there I started looking around and found a used Tikka T3x in 6.5 CM. Ultimately I had purchased the 223 to use the action to eventually customize, not realizing at the time that for a Tikka you have to change the whole bolt… Not just the bolt head. Realizing I didn’t have quite what I would eventually need to build on I ask about a trade. I could go from the 223 T3 to a stainless T3x in a much more Hunter friendly round and already threaded for $300 plus the 223. I decided to go for it.
First thing I did was clean the T3x, mounted a scope, and bore sighted before heading to the range. At the range I couldn’t hit a target the size of a poster at 100 yards with the bore sighting, so I had to take it to 25 yards before I finally was able to find my poi. At 25 yards the gun was shooting over 7 inches to the left. I didn’t think too much of it… Adjusted the scope and finally had an impact on paper from 100 yards. I worked on dialing it in at that point, but the groups were garbage. Nothing under 2" from 100 yards… And I was just doing 3 shot groups till I got it sighted in how I wanted. Near the end of my range session I let the gun cool a little bit and figured I would take a peek at the bore sighting… When looking down the barrel I couldn’t even see the sheet of paper where my target was… The barrel was looking over a foot to the right and probably down at least 8 inches. I realize bore sighting isn’t the end goal, but that just seems wrong to me. I’ve never had a gun that far off when bore sighting. It makes me think there is something significantly wrong with the barrel and makes me question if this particular barrel can ever find a load that will shoot good out of it - I was using Jim’s 6.5 CM recipe using 143 ELDX that I made up the night before.
At this point I’m thinking I’d rather go back to the 223 and just wait longer for the customizing option. I called up the gun shop who I’ve done business with at least a half dozen times the last several years. I describe my concerns and ask if it would be ok to trade back… Just get my barrel threaded. He pretty much goes ballistic when I ask and at one point says he’ll trade it back and then he never wants my business again. Like totally off the rails when I’m mostly trying to discuss my options. He said he doesn’t want to take other people’s " sh#!" … Which is interesting because I feel like that’s what he sold me. Anyway, I’ll probably take him up on the offer to get my gun and money back… And if he doesn’t want my business there are plenty of other places I can go. Honestly don’t feel like I’m being that unreasonable considering I traded him a used gun for a used gun, cleaned it for him, shot it for him using my own ammo, and am still planning to spend money to get mine threaded. Now he still gets some business plus he knows more about the gun he’s trying to sell.
Am I being unreasonable? Too picky on the bore sighting issue? Just looking for some balanced advice…
So right now it’s shooting essentially center of the target but the groups are just bad?
I personally wouldn’t get that wrapped up with what the bore sighting looks like so long as the groups are centered. And they stay centered from 50 yards all the way out to either 200 or 300. And so long as the scope isn’tabsolutely maxed out in windage adjustment to make that happen. I’ve had that happen personally on a rifle and it turned out that they had drilled with the holes for the scope rings not in line with the barrel. But in that case I never could get the absolute windage correct even at maximum adjustment, and could prove it using more than one scope and more than one set of rings.
If it’s just group size that’s too large, then I would do the typical clean the barrel, check the scope rings and base rings, rail Rings if you have them. Also check the stock for Barrel contact and check the action screws. Try a box of Hornady ELDX or ELDM and/or Berger factory Elite. If it doesn’t shoot any of those Factory loads well it definitely needs to go back and if that store owner is being that much of a dick to you, then I wouldn’t deal with him at all. There are certainly other ways to get it back to Tikka
I tried some of the factory 143 ELDX, a partial box of Sig Elite Hunter (130 grain I believe), and the hand loads.
The first time to the range I had a Zeiss scope on it. It shot so bad that even with it on paper at 100 yards I would still completely lose shots (and I had a fairly large area where I should have been able to find them). I have mostly been using a small (piece of junk) Outlier suppressor. I say junk because I’m not sure it really cuts out much noise. The last two shots of that session I shot without the suppressor… And couldn’t find either one. I checked the action screws, the rail screws, the scope mounts and the scope rings. The gun shop owner said he’s had some bad experience with Zeiss recently, so I also changed out the scope.
Today was using an Athlon Helos 4-20x 50 and shooting the hand loads. I don’t have any idea where to find Sako ammo. I’m pretty certain I’ve never seen it in any of the gun stores (even the big stores like Scheels).
So the bore not being in alignment with where it’s actually shooting doesn’t matter? It kind of boggles my mind, but I guess I haven’t ever had a gun like that before.
Both times shooting I used sand bags for both the front and the rear. I felt good about all the trigger squeezes and the stability of the shots.
The group sizes are mostly over 3 inches. Typically two fairly close and a third shot way off. It hasn’t been consistent which shot is the flier sometimes it’s the first sometimes the second and sometimes the third. Again I like the idea of the 5 shot group, but when a 3 shot group is that bad I figure why continue!
I’ve been using the factory stock and it has a relatively hefty barrel. Not a bull barrel, but not a slim Jim either. That said, I haven’t checked the barrel to stock contact, so can’t say whether or not that’s an issue.
I guess my biggest concern is that barrel misalignment. I just haven’t seen that before and it automatically made me think something’s wrong with it.
Seems that you’ve checked all the right things so far. I like the idea of checking the bedding next.
2 questions…
Have you checked out the barrel with a bore scope? Is it just simply shot out - tons of throat erosion, fire cracking, etc? 6.5 CM does not have a long barrel life, so it might be worth checking that.
And the threaded muzzle - did it come from the factory like that or was it done after the fact? I ask because I’ve seen Jim complain that Tikkas didn’t have threaded barrels for a long time. Not sure when that changed. I have also heard several experts talk about threading the muzzle (after market) on a barrel that was hammer forged (Tikka) or button rifled. That can allow the pent-up stresses to cause the bore to open up at the muzzle - like a trumpet. A very bad thing for precision/accuracy. Might be a long shot and maybe you’ll never know who threaded the muzzle.
Would be really helpful to know you have a load it likes.
Bore sighting is pretty frequently off. The barrel whips as it shoots, so the bore sight isn’t necessarily where the bullet will impact. It’s only good enough to get in the ballpark.
I can’t say for sure but my best guess is that it was not a factory threaded barrel. There’s no thread protector with it and my assumption has been that it’s a few years old.
I also didn’t realize that 6.5 CM was a barrel burner, always thought it was mild compared to other cartridges. Probably something worth checking out. My biggest problem would be knowing what I’m looking at!
Thanks for your thoughts. Good things to consider.
This is where my inexperience shows the most. I realize bore sighting is not hunt ready, but never realized it could be that far off. Pretty much every other rifle I’ve bore sighted has been close enough that I could find the poi at 100 yards.
Thanks for the info, makes me less concerned about that part of the gun. Now the accuracy becomes the focal point. I’m planning to talk with the gun shop owner today. We’ll see what happens.
If I keep the gun I’ll see about getting the Sako ammo.
I don’t think I would classify 6.5 CM as a barrel burner at all, nothing like some other overbore cartridges…22-250 and 28 Nosler come to mind. But it’s got a shorter life than .308 Win as an example.
First I want to say thanks to everyone that responded. Your take on this situation definitely helped - especially Jim’s view that the bore sighting issue was not an issue. Here’s my update:
I went in to the shop this morning. To the owners credit he was back to his normal friendly mannerisms and he put his own scope on the gun. We went out to his gun range and shot the gun without the suppressor first. It seemed to shoot reasonably well. I suggested we shoot with the suppressor and the two shots fired with the suppressor were nowhere to be found! We started looking at the suppressor and the barrel threads to discover that the threading didn’t go all the way to the edge of the barrel. There was a shoulder of 1/16" or so before the cut edge of the barrel. There was no recess to allow for this in the suppressor, so it was tightening up against the shoulder, not the cut edge of the barrel. There were no baffle strikes, but for the gun to go from how it was shooting without to not being able to find the holes with seemed telling. We went back to his shop where he had the gunsmith true the barrel edge and recess the shoulder to allow the suppressor to bottom out on the trued barrel edge. We took it back out to the range and fired 4 shots with the suppressor. Only at 25 yards or so, but it seemed to be hitting where expected. With the knowledge that there was a sufficient explanation for the inaccuracy and Jim’s opinion that the bore sighting wasn’t an issue I decided to keep the gun.
Moral of the story: shoot with and without the suppressor to determine the real accuracy of a gun. Also need to give the owner credit for taking the time to figure out the problem and rectifying the situation.
Great outcome! Despite my initial impressions of the shop owner from your original post, you actually got outstanding support. I’m sure a lot of shops sell used guns “as-is”, at the buyer’s risk. This guy didn’t leave you hanging.
Just thought I would post the range results after the fix… Have to admit I’m starting to see why people rave about Tikka accuracy.! The first picture is my first 5 round group today. I adjusted the scope and sent another five after letting it cool, 2nd picture. Then I sent 3 at the 200 yard target (first two in the same hole).
