10 yrs from now what factory rifle support is gone for 7’s?
280AI? 280 Rem? 6.8 Western? 7SAUM? 7WSM? Even 7mmRM? Some sooner than others of course.
I wonder what sales volume is their cutoff to say we need our lines and people for other things?
I’ve always felt like the 6.8 Western has been on life support ever since it’s birth. And things don’t look any better for it these days. I don’t see it surviving even if we didn’t have the 7prc.
4 to 6 months ago I would have told you that the 280 Remington was completely dead. I was looking around for a new rifle and cartridge. Was considering both it and the Ackley version. At that time if you did an ammo seek search for the 280 Remington you would get three or four hits only and they were all the same Remington Factory ammo which was most likely new old stock. On the other hand the Ackley had 20 to 50 listings. I just redid that search today and looks like Hornady and a few other companies have started pushing out 280 Remington ammo and there’s now over 100 listings. The AI still sits around 50. That being said, I don’t see any new rifles on any of the big box stores websites being made in 280 Remington.
Ended up buying the AI version and man I love this thing! Maybe I should buy a spare.
You sure are right about the 6.8 Western. Too bad really. I was going to buy one a while back but didn’t want to buy a dying cartridge.
I have a Ruger M77 SS in 280 rem. Bought before AI was standard cartridge. It is a sweet gun. Accurate and hammers the deer. Had the old boat paddle stock. Has a 20 in barrel and I love carrying it in the woods. I put a b&c stock on it and it has a leupold 3x9 vx2. Seems so old school now.
I think the 280AI and 7 SAUM (ironically they are ballistically nearly identical) will likely survive in the enthusiast market due to the handloading community. Owners of both tend to be borderline “religious” about those cartridges.
The 7 WSM is all but dead more or less given that more shooters in the competitive community have adopted the 7 SAUM. The 6.8 Western is perhaps one of the greatest modern cartridges on paper and unfortunately it’ll likely die unceremoniously mainly due to a lack of factory support and the apprehension of shooters given it’s almost proprietary at this point.
Now if Hornady made a 7PRC Short or if someone essentially made a modernized 284 Win… or just if Remington updated the specs on the 7 SAUM with modern bullets in mind… that could solve a desire for the competitive shooters and the hunters that want an updated modern Remington 7 Rifle.
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I was about set on buying a 6.8 Western, being a big .270 fan, and now mourn its unceremonious death. I still, for the life of me, don’t understand why Winchester and Browning didn’t give it more support. Yes, it certainly had competition from the Hornady camp with the PRC line, but it seems like Winchester and Browning didn’t really try. Anyway, that’s how it goes. Maybe someday in the future it will be resurrected.
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I think it’s less about Browning/Winchester supporting and more about the industry not supporting it. If the ammo companies and case companies don’t jump onboard then most likely the cartridge will fail. I guess that’s where the beauty and conflict of Hornady comes into play. Most everything they have a hand in sees commercial success where others largely fail.
Did Browning/Winchester know that Hornaday was going to be blackballing the 6.8W? If so, then they should not have launched until they had made arrangements with other ammo manufacturers like Federal, Barnes, etc to immediately start producing ammo for it, as well as component companies doing the same for reloading, as well as other reloading companies making dies, etc for it.
Instead by launching it completely on their own, those other companies mentioned above took a sit back and see if it succeeds approach before starting to invest major capital, Etc into a brand new cartridge. Since it hasn’t been a major success, there’s no reason for them to dump money into an almost certain failure.
Of course, we have no way of knowing whether Browning/Winchester knew that Hornady was going to blackball the 6.8W. I get it. It’s business, but it makes me like Hornady less, personally. That said, I agree it would have been prudent for Browning/Winchester to have made arrangements with other ammo (and maybe even rifle) manufacturers. Perhaps they tried and no one bit on the pitch, however if they didn’t attempt those pre-launch deals, in my mind speaks to not really trying. Perhaps if they did, they thought Browning/Winchester had enough of a name to carry a proprietary cartridge, but I would say that was a misread they should have anticipated given recent the recent market. All speculative of course. In the end, it does seem the 6.8W is going to fail despite being a great cartridge on paper and early reports.
I don’t know that Hornady “blackballed” Winchester/Browning so much as they made a competing cartridge for one of their most popular loadings… but I think it would be somewhat unfair to get upset at Hornady when Nosler isn’t supporting due to the 27 Nosler being a thing, Weatherby isn’t supporting because the 6.5 RPM covers the same ground, and ultimately with the ammo shortage of the last 3 years or so they just chose a terrible time to launch a new cartridge family. We saw a company like Weatherby delay the launch of the 338 RPM due to the shortage because it was ready to go technically about a year after the 6.5 RPM (which I’ll forever argue that the 6.5 RPM should’ve been a 7mm now that we see the 7mm PRC craze.)
Barnes, Federal, and semi-custom boutique ammo companies could still support the 6.8 Western if the backing was there. I’m not so sure that the bullet choice was a part of the death but I really like what it does on paper and honestly I think it’s about one of the lightest recoiling true elk rounds available.
I’ve always been of the opinion that the 6.8 Western is what the 6.5 PRC wanted to be. That being said Winchester/Browning didn’t do themselves favors with the loaded ammo being all over the place on consistency and quality control. I’ve seen reviews where the ballistic tips are visibly deformed, extreme spreads have been as high as 90fps out the same box of 20, and groups are all over the place from .75” to 4” groups.
I could be wrong, as I am basing this on my own perception, but I think it is fair to say Hornady has more “leverage” in the current market than Nosler or Weatherby. Otherwise, fair points. The ammo shortage certainly played a role. I do agree that it goes beyond bullet choice and had my share of criticism for Winchester/Browning for not putting more backing behind the 6.8W.
So to ask another way - who would buy any 7mm other than PRC in that class of cartridge? I get a 7mm-08 but that is different. And I could see most disappearing except 28 Nosler because they make it anyways. The question is does 7mm RM go away as a factory offering? And related - why does the 300WM hang on in spite of 300 PRC?
Highly doubt the 7RM is going anywhere at least in my lifetime. Been out for way too long. Several companies still making great rifles in it and great ammo in it. It’s got a good reputation for Effectiveness on game. As mentioned the 300 PRC did not knock out the 300 WM, or even the 300 WSM. Both of which seem to be going quite strong.
I certainly don’t know the numbers but the vast, vast majority of hunters are not going to actually won’t come and need something to stretch out extreme distances. Most deer around here are killed in under 70 yards. These new long range specific cartridges just don’t offer them anything.
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I agree, doubtful 7RM will go away any time soon. I imagine there is a large number of 7RM rifles out there and as you mention, they are still being made. True, the 7 PRC appears to have a lot going for it. It’s faster than 7RM and has the COAL to accommodate heavier (longer) high bc bullets. That will float the boat of some people, but there are all kinds of people out there. Some are excited by the latest new thing and can’t wait to try the new cartridge, easily giving up what they had been using. People new to shooting and hunting may also go with the latest and greatest. Others appreciate tradition, sticking to known performers, and will keep their proven rifles and cartridges and hand them down to their kids. It’s not like the 7RM, 300 WM, 300WSM won’t get the job done in most hunting circumstance as the advantages of the new high bc bullets aren’t really manifest until you stretch the range significantly. The drops and drifts at 400 yards are pretty similar between the 7RM and 7PRC. Just my observation. So in keeping, I would predict the 7RM will be around for some time to come as will the 300WM and 300 WSM.
I think 7RM ammo will certainly be around for a long time. Big established base. And if you have the rifle of course use it. And I am not the first to ask this question but if you do not own a 7RM why buy one now? 7mm PRC is not only for long range. I will likely never use mine for hunting past 450. But it will be fun to try 1000 yd shooting or more. If you have money for a new rifle and you want 7mm what are the vast majority of people going to do? And it seems the rest of them are in the noise for volume mainstream rifle production. If you told
me the PRC was more money for the performance I could see that tradeoff but its not. Ammo is same price and guns run from low end Mossberg and up to the expensive ones. I am not a 7mmRM hater but just thinking about this from a practical pov. I chose to buy PRC not RM six months ago. I have had 300 WM for 35 yrs so not getting rid of those. My 7PRC has not supplanted my 300WM just yet - need more time on the gun since I have only put 20 rds through it. But maybe by next fall - with my suppressor on the 7, the 300 might start gathering dust as well.
You make fair points. I’ve never owned a 7mm and if I were going to get into the caliber, I would go with the 7PRC myself. Who knows, maybe I will, at some point.
I agree that there are just too many 7RM rifles out there for the ammo to go away. Also a hand loader with a custom chambering can possibly push the 7RM a bit further than the 7PRC with the same weight bullets in reality. Hornady just offers a cost effective turnkey option to shooters.
All valid points and considerations regarding choosing between the 7 mm RM and prc.
It’s a bit difficult to tease out right now because the landscape is literally shifting under our feet as we speak. Bergara just launched their PRC. We have yet to hear from Tikka.
Why would someone choose the RM versus the PRC now? Well, possibly
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Still a wider variety of types of bullets and styles of bullets and weights of bullets in the older RM versus the prc. For instance right now no Factory is loading Barnes in PRC, at least that I’ve seen.
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A lot of people love to bring up the situation of you go on to hunting trip and you left your ammo at home. Therefore you going to the local hardware store to pick up a box. Almost certainly right now PRC would be impossible to find in a small hardware store in the middle of nowhere where is the RM is.
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Tradition. Despite all the advancements we’ve had in the past couple of decades with cartridge design and bullet design, the 30-06, 270, and 308 are still hugely popular and don’t seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. Same for 7RM.
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Finally while the internet gun forum, YouTube areas are certainly quite popular, I would still wager a strong bet that the vast majority of Shooters and Hunters are not actively following this. I bet next month when I go into deer camp if I mention 7 PRC, people are going to look at me with blank expressions… If I bring up high BC, people are going to assume I’m talking about tainted headache powder.
Again, however we are experiencing active change here. In another 6 months Tikka may have several models available and the ammo situation will probably, in fact almost certainly be different than it is today.
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I agree that it is hard to gauge future interests from the perspective of being an enthusiast. Our desires/needs aren’t necessarily what the general populace wants/needs all the time. Also most people are going to depend on what the gun store worker says to be true. Case in point I visited a store several years back when I first moved into town and there was a guy trying to convince me to buy a 6.5 Creedmoor when I was looking specifically for a 7mm-08… in short I left the store when they guy didn’t believe the ballistic numbers from my app because he was trying to convince me that the 6.5 Creedmoor was more powerful than a 30-06.
This are the types that would have a new shooter buying whatever is “hot” from a sales perspective without regards for what’s best for the shooter. Like if a person knows what they’re after for a specific reason then it makes little sense to try to convince them to go a different way.
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If a new shooter is looking for a 7mm magnum - kind of an interesting place to start? I would say not many of those types are looking for magnum. Always an exception of course. Also the ammo on the shelf when going hunting in some remote place is also a weird argument for 7mm RM. They probably have it for locals for sure but if you are dialed in on your 7mm as you should be before hunting for elk then don’t forget your ammo. I would never use that as a reason to pick a caliber. Even when the local Sportsmans has boxes of stuff - if it not what I shoot I dont buy it.
As for tradition - if you are new and moving to a 7mm magnum, I imagine that will not be a big factor.
270 is interesting though. Nothing really filling that space well. I am a270 fan for deer. Have 3 of them. Great for the 15-20 year olds (and old men like me) for deer hunting. I did not add to the list because I think it survives. I think 7mm RM does as well but it will not be king in long run for rifle sales. Ammo sales sure.
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